PITI = Principal + Interest + Taxes + Insurance
These are the four major components of "ownership" costs. I would also add a fifth category for maintenance but we'll get to that later.
However, when we compare ownership costs to rent costs, we have to remember that when renting you are paying nothing towards principal. So I would argue you should look at ITI vs rent and omit the P (Principal) component. I have argued this for a long time and you can go back and look at my old posts where I talked about looking at rent vs an interest only mortgage (hence, no principal).
To simplify, I'm going to look at what these numbers cost per $100k of purchase price.
You can get a 30 year fixed for under 4% but I will use 4% to be conservative. (You can also get 5/1 ARM money below 3% but we won't go there...).
Interest = $333
Taxes = $100
Insurance = $15
This comes to $448/month. However, interest and taxes are deductible on your taxes. Since we are talking about westside properties, you are most likely falling into at least a 28% if not 33% (or higher) tax bracket. I will be conservative and use 25% to account for some AMT and other restrictions.
This brings the net monthly payment down to $340. I will now add in a little under 1% cost for maintenance which brings us to a total net monthly cost of about $400. Assuming zero tax deductions, the gross cost comes out to $508.
Before the bubble ever burst we talked about how properties in desirable areas generally wouldn't get to or through rental parity even at the bottom of the cycle. However, I would argue that by using the numbers above you can find many examples where properties (more skewed towards entry level than the top of the market) are currently selling close to or at rental parity. I believe rents are firm and aren't going down. This puts in a good floor for prices and that is a big reason why you are seeing stability in the market right now.
Looking out more than just a year into the future you need to remember that your housing costs are fixed for the most part if you buy. However, the rental rates you use in these exercises are subject to increases. Over many years I think inflation will take its toll and help boost rents. Meanwhile those who buy are not subject to rental increases. Instead, they will accrue benefits of a lower fixed cost which will ultimately manifest itself in higher nominal property values over time.
I'm happy to hear some rebuttals to this way of viewing things but I think this is how to do it. In this case we have zero down payment. However in reality, a responsible buyer will put at least 20% down. Since your money is making less than 1% these days, you are actually benefiting as you will implicitly be earning the interest rate of your loan (4% in my example) instead of less than 1%. So you can't make an argument about opportunity cost of capital. Secondly, I think this continues on toward principal payments. I'm not including them here, but essentially you are earning the cost of the loan on that money when you pay down your principal. Granted, when you rent you aren't forced to pay any principal. But in my mind, being forced to pay principal isn't the worst thing in the world as you are essentially being forced to buy a bond paying 4% which enables you to gain all the future upside in the housing market.
So in real life, we are looking at $400/month net cost of owning per $100k of house. So does a $1mm property rent for $4,000/month? I would say that is about where rents are these days...We are close enough to parity that if you have a stable job and have the down payment saved up, you don't have much to gain at all by renting.
Thursday, February 16, 2012
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But if you need a jumbo loan your interest costs go up to around 5.25%, right? Isn't that the more realistic calculation for most SM mortgages?
ReplyDeleteWarchest
ReplyDeletefirst of all thank you for running a blog that allows all points of view to be expressed.
I agree with those that post here speaking about the benefits of living on the West Side or for those who can afford it, the benefits of living in the 90402
Let's look exclusively at people who have the income needed to comfortably live in the 90402.
I think that your above analysis may persuade them to buy, but I would humbly suggest that the right answer for most is to RENT in the 90402 not to buy in the 90402
The major problem is that your analysis only applies to people who are going to live in the house for a long time.
If you buy a house and then change your mind and want to sell five years later, the transaction costs are huge.
Now many many people with the income to live in the 90402 will want to move within a five year window.
There are a lot of trends in California that might lead someone to want to leave California in five years.
So respectfully I suggest that the right answer is to RENT in the 90402, enjoy it, but be ready to move without looking back if life circumstances change
7:39am,
ReplyDeleteI think it all depends on where you are in life. The two ends of the spectrum: A. you are young and single, then renting makes sense vs B. you have young kids in or about to go to school, then you won't want to move and will stay for awhile.
This is no longer just an economic decision but also a life and philosophical decision. When you are young you want to preserve options and choices--I've noticed a lot of the younger crowd are the ones that can't understand why buy. When you are older with a family growing up you start to realize life is short and you want to put down roots for your children if you can afford it. I've noticed these are the people who tend to focus on buying.
9:57pm,
ReplyDeleteHave you looked at a jumbo lately from your private banker at a Wells Fargo, etc? Jumbos are under 4% as well at this point. Banks like the risk/reward as they are getting 20% downpayments as a cushion (i.e. they think the chances of prices dropping that far are basically zero) but yet interest rates are low (close to 0% for short term funding) so the spread is attractive.
Respectfully,
ReplyDeleteMany of the people who have the high incomes needed in order to live in the promised land (North of Montana) also have some career risk.
Think about the changes in the capital markets that render some types of investment bankers obsolete, look at the changes in the legal market that can take a lawyer from comfortably earning the income needed to live North of Montana to no longer earning that income.
I am surprised to see people here assume that people who can today afford North of Montana will be able to continue to afford it
Another thing to consider is the California budget. I am not a doom and gloom type person, I am not sure that the state of California will go BK. If I was sure I would be short the california Munis. But there is certainly a possibility of things getting bad in the state of California.
ReplyDeleteIf you can enjoy the lifestyle of the promised land without taking on the financial risk, why not do so?
I think the additional analysis is to look at the length of time a buyer is likely to live (which admittedly a buyer is typically looking to stay for a while these days) and the transaction costs of selling/moving vs the risk of rents increasing over that time period and the likelihood of multiple moves and the associated costs.
ReplyDeleteThe other thing worth also factoring in is the fact an owner will likely enjoy a higher quality of living conditions in their residence after all financial analysis is factored in as they can tailor a residence to their choice and lifestyle over time, including furnishings, etc.
8:22 is correct. As an owner I can install new major kitchen appliances, I can change the landscaping, perhaps put in a pool and hot tub. These are all things that renters can't do. These things really enhance my life.
ReplyDeleteAt the same time, there are many reasons why someone who is very happy may want to change their mind and move. The crime situation could change quickly. I know a number of people who decided right after the riots to leave beautiful homes in Hancock Park and move to Beverly Hills. Beverly Hills has a police department that just does a better job than the LAPD at persuading invaders to not come in to the neighborhood
The point is that if you rented a mansion in Hancock Park you were able to move quickly and not look back. if you owned you went through huge hassle to get out
Another simple way to look at it is that if you use all cash to buy something vs the rental cost. I have looked at a lot of properties and I would agree that generally right now a 4% cap rate seems to apply to Santa Monica (I'm sure there are plenty of examples that are higher and also lower but that's at least what I am seeing). So property taxes are about 1.1% in Santa Monica which, on an after tax basis, let's call that 0.80%. Then you would pay homeowner's insurance and maintenance costs vs just renter's insurance. Let's call that another full 1% to be conservative. So you are getting 2.2% on your capital. If you look at the 10yr Treasury it is about 2%, the 7yr note is under 1.5%, and the 5 yr note is under 1%. Now it is true that transaction costs are astronomically higher to sell a home at 5% then a bond which is negligible. However, you can also make other arguments in favor of the real asset in a time when many are concerned about the long term value of the USD and the implications of holding too much paper money in that scenario. The only thing I'm trying to provide is another perspective why buying a home can make sense both rationally as well as emotionally. And also why it is highly unlikely home prices crash at this point and are more likely stabilizing to bottomed out.
ReplyDeleteI can't believe this is the only post to bring up carrying costs - as usual they are unfairly overlooked.
DeleteI was confused with 2.2% return on capital, it seems to me you're paying 2.2% as a maintenance cost. Now, throw in transaction costs, decorating, AND the fact that NOONE buying a 1m or even a 4m home just lives in it! That's right folks, the more money you have, the more likely you are going to determine that your new home NEEDS some sort of capital improvement. The last millionaire owner just had no taste in cabinets and countertops, right? So, Capex, transaction amortization, taxes, insurance, repairs - I'm thinking, and this is a guess - you better realize 4% annualized capital appreciation just to break even.
"Since your money is making less than 1% these days"
ReplyDeleteAren't you forgetting the stock market?
8:22am,
ReplyDeleteTrue CA has it's challenges. As we all know, our country, the US has it's challenges.
As a result some of us think about being prepared to escape CA or even the US at any moment. Others feel that CA and the US have a lot of great long term advantages and want to commit to raising a family here. As another poster mentioned, it's also a personal and philosophical choice in terms of how you want to live your life.
FWIW, whenever I travel outside the country, even in China, a lot of people I meet see the US, and especially CA, as the best long-term place to settle down and raise a family.
CA is naturally beautiful, has great geographic and demographic diversity. CA has some of the best universities in the world and is the undisputed leader in two of the most desirable industries in technology and entertainment. Also, compared to the big cities of the rest of the world, 90402 looks cheap or on par with many of even the second tier global cities.
8:43am,
ReplyDeleteDo you want to be 100% invested in the stock market? I would prefer to be diversified. I'm not taking my stock retirement portfolio to buy a house...no one should. However, if you have cash saved for a downpayment it is earning less than 1%. If you don't then you shouldn't even be thinking about buying.
Crime is not predictable. If you buy for 4 million and then sell the transaction costs eat 300k of your wealth. Why risk the 300k?
ReplyDeleteGet a license; cut your transaction costs. Or, use a broker/lawyer who will charge a flat, low rate. 2.5% on your million dollar deal can easily be halved with that scenario. It's eminently doable.
DeleteFirst of all, if you buy for $4m, the transaction costs when you decide to sell are closer to $200k not $300k. Secondly, if you buy all cash, as 8:38am pointed out, you are capturing a spread on your money versus your fixed income portfolio in the meantime...e.g. if you buy all cash and stay 7yrs and look at the 7yr treasury, over the 7 yrs you are capturing about 5% back in after tax money. In the meantime, if you have children you have provided a nest and stability for them rather than moving every couple of years and enjoyed a place you can make home rather than feeling like you are waiting and waiting for the market to some day drop to where you are praying it does. On the otherhand, if inflation picks up and/or the USD depreciates you will have been rewarded financially as well.
ReplyDeleteOf course, anyone buying a $4m home is not purely driven by making the last 1% on their money. I think one thing that gets lost in all of the bear/bull arguments is the passing of time. I think we all agree it all made sense if you were scared in 05, 06, 07, 08 you were buying into one of the mother of all bubbles to stay out of the market and wait. If you were really ready to buy because you were thinking about having a family, let's say 30 years old in 05, you are now turning 37 this year and you probably have children who are school age or nearing school age. Those kids are with you for another 10-15 years and then you become an empty nester. How much longer does one plan to wait and move around year to year or every couple of years while trying to wait this market out?
Do you really think that home prices are going to fall another 20% anytime soon? We had a sudden surprise falling off the cliff event at the end of 2008 where even the smart money was concerned about the risk the "world was coming to an end" and where forced sales were taking place in all asset classes around the world. At this point, most people are well aware the global economy, the US, and CA are not in perfect shape...guys, it's priced in the trade in my opinion.
let me say right off the bat that not everyone that is saying on this blog to "BUY" is a realtor.
ReplyDeletebottom line, if you think you might have to move in next few years do not buy.
if you are absolutely sure that you will stay in the house for a very long long time, buy
if you are somewhere in the middle, you have a tough choice to make
and the above applies to the "...promised land..." as well as to other neighborhoods
I think less than 3 yrs definitely rent. More than 7 yrs definitely buy. In between depends on what you value in life.
ReplyDeleteYeah 5:33 has it nailed.
ReplyDeleteI thought SM was rent controlled? Shouldn't that factor into this analysis?
ReplyDeleteHouses aren't rent controlled.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, the point of my post is that the numbers make it such that the rent vs buy costs are fairly inline. Does anyone see it differently? I have seen people mention that owning costs much more than renting but my numbers don't show that. Obviously buying doesn't make sense if you don't have a stable employment situation and/or you plan on potentially moving after a year or two. But that isn't the point I'm trying to drive home.
Also, I'm going to delete future comments talking about "promised land" or any other rubbish. Try to stay on topic or else you may want to find another blog.
Warchest,
ReplyDeleteWish you'd stress more about the costs of ownership.
Also, the startup costs are particularly high - new appliances
and paint at a minimum, so you need to differentiate between people
who stay long enough between high transaction cost moves to amortize the
cost, and those people who don't...
Let's have some comments on Sunday's open houses
ReplyDeleteWell, I have some data to share but it's about the 90405, not the 90402.
ReplyDeleteUpdating the 9/24/11 post on "No Bid for the Junk," 1037 Hill (at the corner with busy 11th) just sold for $600K. Originally listed for $799K on 1/11 and relisted as a short sale in 9/11 for $700K, the home previously sold for $775K in 12/06. So, the new $600K sale reps a 23% drop from the top. I didn't think it was "junk" as much as bizarre with a tacked-on third bedroom on an abbreviated second floor.
I also remember the tiny 780 sqft home/2,875 sqft lot, 2/1 bank-owned place just four or so houses down the block at 2822 11th St. It was next to an alley and sold for $672K in 3/10. 1037 Hill sits on slightly more land -- 3,000 sqft -- and has 3 bedrooms with a total of 1,286 sqft, and it now sells for $600K.
Now, these may not be exact comps, but would smaller 2822 11th St. now go for below $600K?? I remember being told prices were "stabilizing" back in 2010 for such smaller homes. I, for one, think prices still have a ways to fall.
Everyone seems to be going "Anonymous," but I'll sign off with my facts and feelings for now.
So rather than talk about actual numbers, people have decided to focus on a bunch of distractions. Crime? Please. This is Santa Monica. Illiquidity of real estate and high transaction costs? Duh. You shouldn't buy property if you can't make a long term commitment...just like you shouldn't buy stocks unless you have a longer term holding period. New appliances and paint? These are acts of consumption which you make the choice on. And the costs are largely negligible relative to the purchase price of any west side property anyway. California going bankrupt? Yeah right. S&P just boosted California's credit outlook to positive.
ReplyDeleteWarren Buffett is right on when he says that the future is always uncertain. Things are most dangerous when everything has been going well for a long time and nobody is worried about the future or willing to take a skeptical look at anything. That is exactly the opposite of what I see today. Most people today are being too conservative and are worrying too much about well known issues. This builds the base for a long lasting recovery. The real estate market reflects this extremely well. Know anyone who thinks prices could rise anytime soon (or even in the next few years)? I don't. That's bullish (or at least a sign we are way closer to a bottom than top). People are driving with their eyes firmly fixed on the rear view mirror.
Both very challenged locations and small square footage. All kinds of nonsense can happen with short sales too. I think readers here are interested in looking at decent properties, not bottom of the barrel stuff. For the decently located, non goofy properties I think you will have a hard time showing that prices have come down much over the past year or two. See my recent post about properties on Washington in 90403.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete"I didn't think it was "junk" as much as bizarre with a tacked-on third bedroom on an abbreviated second floor."
ReplyDelete3000 SF lot and on 11th automatically makes it junk.
Can anyone else do a rent vs buy comparison for SFRs in santa monica?
ReplyDeleteI agree with our esteemed moderator that the cost to own a SFR is 0.5% of the purchase price per month
As such, a one million dollar SFR costs all in $5k per month to own
There is a pretty liquid market for one million dollar houses in most neighborhoods - so may i ask if the houses selling for one million would rent for 5k or more or less
Yes I think 5K would be in the range. Thats really the sunset park area in value terms (1m purchase price) and I have been seing rents in the 4k-7k range
ReplyDeleteWell 12:17pm, our esteemed moderator actually calculated it as roughly $4k/month to own, not $5k/month.
ReplyDeleteRegardless, I agree with 5:18pm. Sunset Park area homes generally rent in the $4k-$6k range or so with outliers on either end occasionally higher or lower. That is if you can find one...inventory for renting a SFH is very low.
I own a modest rental home in Sunset Park and over the past 15-18 months, I have had people come out of the woodwork asking to let them know when it becomes available....
ReplyDeleteSo I tend to agree with 6:01...inventory must be low! I have never had that type of interest before for the property.
I rented for two years and just bought in sunset park, but looked at renting again before buying. The rental market was completely differnt from two years ago. Inventory was low both times, but prices for the same properties were 10-20% higher this time around. At the same time, sale prices were 20%+ less. That said, there was still significant variation in the market, some good deals and some overpriced homes, i.e., some near rental parity and others not even close.
ReplyDeleteOn a side note, the rentals usually had serious flaws - worst location on block, screwball floorplan, no dishwasher, etc., which makes sense as those are usually the same flawed properties that sell at a discount to an investor. Those buying to live in the home generally avoid the seriously flawed properties.
Wow, a comment from a real person actually out in the market instead of a bunch of garbage from those far removed from what is really going on. Refreshing. Thanks for sharing.
ReplyDeleteWe are starting to look hard, just applied for mortgage prequalification and selected a realtor this week. Now, where should we focus? Budget is about $750k, could go up to $800k if need be but we are cautious and do not want to leverage ourselves up to the eyeballs. Family of 3, 2 working parents and one kid. We currently rent in Venice, a 900 sq ft 2BR/1 BA cottage, but with a huge yard and walking distance to Abbot Kinney. Unfortunately we commute to 3 different locations, me to the Valley, spouse to Westwood, kid to charter school in the Marina/Del Rey area.
ReplyDeleteIs Sunset Park worth looking into or is it beyond our price point? Up to now we've been thinking about Mar Vista and West LA.
beyond, unless you want a real junker, bad location.
ReplyDelete